WAC Beta v0.1 - Downloads, comments, suggestions

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dewshine
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August 17th, 2008

I'm going to look at the Shadow Ranger scripts and see what and how those animal companions are done. I know they don't use OBSE, but quest scripts. I suppose there must be a way to set the conditions to check for certain things before the quest runs. This being the case I should be able to check for fame/infamy or any other stat the game tracks, yeah?
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Waalx
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August 17th, 2008

oh! yeah!

:-D-)
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amievil85
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August 17th, 2008

I'm starting testing tonight Alex!
5 years of Oblivion and still going strong.
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Rung
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August 17th, 2008

Oh man,
you've done a beautiful job and created a whole new feeling to Cyrodiil.
Best experience was me heading to an otter, which fled into a river and swam away. It's just great. So natural.

-A few things I noticed. The white Lions (I met them just south of Cheydinhal) were not hostile and didn't attack me.
-North of Leyawiin I met two fel giants, that fought each other. Is it intended that they do that?
-The goblin camp south of Leyawiin needs some detailing work in my opinion. The tents are completely empty except for the war chief's tent of course.
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Waalx
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August 17th, 2008

amievil85 wrote:I'm starting testing tonight Alex!
great! lets see..
Rung wrote:Oh man,
you've done a beautiful job and created a whole new feeling to Cyrodiil.
Best experience was me heading to an otter, which fled into a river and swam away. It's just great. So natural.

-A few things I noticed. The white Lions (I met them just south of Cheydinhal) were not hostile and didn't attack me.
-North of Leyawiin I met two fel giants, that fought each other. Is it intended that they do that?
-The goblin camp south of Leyawiin needs some detailing work in my opinion. The tents are completely empty except for the war chief's tent of course.
-Same with the White Lions near the wayshrines. You don't attack White lions, they are Imperial beasts, and will also help you if you bring them something evil. Imperial Man-Eaters, and Red Lions those are the dangerous ones. Reds are the worst since the Man-Eaters will flee before the end of a fight.

- fel? giants have a weird AI. I'm trying something with them to have them attack one race only, by miracle that AI worked for me in-game a few time, but only for 1 type of Giants.

- yep. and actually there will be more camps. But it's a matter of choice here as well. the more detail I add to a camp, the less FPS you'll get, or you will get a lot fewer NPC. But indeed I laid the goblins camps a bit bare, and could add at least a bit more loot to them. :)
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Rung
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August 17th, 2008

-Same with the White Lions near the wayshrines. You don't attack White lions, they are Imperial beasts, and will also help you if you bring them something evil. Imperial Man-Eaters, and Red Lions those are the dangerous ones. Reds are the worst since the Man-Eaters will flee before the end of a fight.
Ah, okay. I see. Great idea. :)
- yep. and actually there will be more camps. But it's a matter of choice here as well. the more detail I add to a camp, the less FPS you'll get, or you will get a lot fewer NPC. But indeed I laid the goblins camps a bit bare, and could add at least a bit more loot to them.
I think there's still enough latitude. As long as the exterior cell hasn't more than 600 items and less than 350.000 faces, it should be okay. I mean, as long as there're not more creatures you have there at the moment ... I had about 6 goblins there.
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August 17th, 2008

Waalx wrote:
that's just not possible, I didn't change nothing other than their clothes! :???: Maybe you have something else running that change mages attributes, but not this. It's cosmetic. The only difference is that they may wear gloves or bracers and leather boots for most. So most of the mage use light armors a bit. And battlemages use body armors Light too I think..
yeah, but there is a bunch of mobs in one area, and you cant always get to the magic users and i kept getting one shotted by them at about 3/4 difficulty. i had no other mods running except that one.

but this was also right out of the sewers, so it should probly be fine in the long run
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August 18th, 2008

been playing like a bitch.
So wonderful :)
Apart from the obvious misplace of some loot and a too aggressive behavior (to my liking) of the animals towards the player, It's incredible. Only real bad point is I had to un-check all UL *.esp, so I was saddened. If a compatibility patch was made (later on, of course), this would be great. Anyway, this shall fall into UL guys, as they've done this with lots of other mods. Same goes for OC.
Let me suggest something I'm being very stubborn 'bout in the official BS forums:
Once the time to make the ll true, anything stronger than iron (or looking fantastic) should not be in them, rater in hand-placed enemies/places. This way the world would look much more real and getting a better weapon/armor would feel as a reward.
PD: I LOVE the goblin camps ^_^
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StarX
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August 18th, 2008

I know Phitt mentioned it before, but the new imp based creatures (such as Gargoyles) should really hoover a bit closer to the ground, as they tend to get stuck in the ceiling right now.

Now that I have seen most creatures in the CS as well, I still can't believe my eyes when looking at some. The Lynx is still one of my favorites! And the new Xivilai are everything a Xivilai should have been in the original game.
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Krigulv
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August 18th, 2008

StarX wrote: Now that I have seen most creatures in the CS as well, I still can't believe my eyes when looking at some. The Lynx is still one of my favorites! And the new Xivilai are everything a Xivilai should have been in the original game.
I agree, the Xivilai are pretty awesome. Had my first encounter with a Red Lord last night. Would've wet myself, but I was pretty dehydrated from the harsh Oblivion atmosphere.
I haven't seen many of the creatures yet, but I think my favorite would hafta be the white troll. I LOVE warbeasts, and their armor makes them look so mean that I just had to pick a fight with them. Fortunately, the other Imperial folk couldn't give a rat's ass. And with the WAC, they even had plenty of rats' asses to choose from. :-o
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August 18th, 2008

StarX wrote: Fortunately, the other Imperial folk couldn't give a rat's ass. And with the WAC, they even had plenty of rats' asses to choose from. :-o
Talking of which... do all the wee creatures give rat meat as loot? A little more variety would be nice. How about gerbil tails? Chipmunk feet? Hedgehog spines (looting these seems funny though: sore fingers!)?

I almost couldn't bring myself to slaughter the chipmunks because they looked *soooooo* cute!

I've been trying to find the different sharks, my favourite thus far is the swordnose shark. The only issue I have thus far with them is the dissapearing corpses. Again, on the subject on ingredients/loot (hey, I made Item Interchange: it's my speciality!), some variety here would also be nice. Shark scales are biologically rather different from the scales on more "advanced" fish (the ones with proper bones, not cartilage), so, uhh, how about shark fins? Whatever your opinion on the industry there's no question people really do hunt sharks for their fins. Shark meat would be good as well. And people make jewellery and traditional medicine from shark teeth. That's three genuine uses of ingredients from sharks.

I don't think any of the shark loot models/textures would be too hard, but if you wanted I could always attempt it myself (no guarantees though, I've never touched any modding of that kind).

Vac
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Krigulv
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August 18th, 2008

After playing around north of Bruma a bit, I have a suggestion for some of the creatures. This isn't the first time something like this has happened since I've been testing the WAC, but it is the funniest. I found a snowbeast roaming around, and he immediately ran from me. Not one to back down from a racing challenge, I took off after him. Well, he was running so fast that he sorta blasted off a small hill and actually died upon landing just a few feet below.
There some way to prevent creatures killing themselves this easily? Also happened to a red fear in Oblivion.
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August 18th, 2008

Waalx wrote: I survived the goblins camps in test at level 0, but with good weapons. Of course if you just run into the fray..good luck and you better be good for your luck to be. But if you take a couple down from afar, and then you go in with them already reduced in number, it doesn't hurt your framerate (or a lot less), and you still can have a good fight. I'm quite sure a level 40+ would survive a direct attack into a goblin camp, lesser power ask for other means. There's only one Conan.

It's almost impossible to approach a camp and they are all in it. there are always some who wander around...easy first targets. Like don't enter a chief tent unless you know what you're doing...they usually won't come out. They are the biggest and fighting one is in close quarter, as he's going to be too big for his own good, and his own tent by the same occasion. :)
I tried again and did it this time on regular difficulty, although it took many of my selfmade ultra-high quality health potions. I killed two of them in stealth mode with my bow before they noticed me. I think the Shamawans (or other shamans) are the toughest ones. They cast 10-20 quite powerful shock spells a minute it seems. Their health is also quite high for a spell casting enemy. Maybe decrease their health a bit? I don't know what controls the behaviour of the Warchief, but I think he should follow the player if he leaves the tent. At least in my case he didn't leave it at all. That was good on one hand as I could regenerate my health outside, but it was bad on the other hand as there wasn't any room for tactics inside the tiny tent. Makes it almost impossible to defeat him for players that go the stealth or archery route for example. And the biggest warrior of them all is the biggest couch potato as well?
I need to see that! I think I was trying something else with the Seagull.. maybe I left that on a model that didn't work!
I met the seagulls at the 'Mouth of the Panther' (teleport marker on the map), which is where the Panther river meets the Niben, northern part of the blackwood. There is a shipwreck with lots of them flying around.
there's not much in the rats animations. I modified some anims in Blender, but it's very much a guess still importing animations in that, and more of a guess when you export. Well at least for any animations that have curves. Half the anims cycle I would have needed to create something very unique with the beast, I can't open them right in Blender. Maybe it's because of the skeletons that are not exactly all like a biped. I don't have Max. And I'm too lazy to learn it at this point, even if I know I should and I'm due to learn how to function in that interface one day. I already have XSI and Blender shortcuts in my head and I'm cursing because they are not the same. and others..each time I learn some new 3d software I wanna cry. :) But actually the plan is to continue working on that side of WAC later. and yeah I will hack myself a Max copy if I have to, and try to see how it goes.
I can't get the head morphs to import into max. That's the only problem in modifying the animation, but I haven't tried that hard either yet. So maybe there is a way.
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running4cover
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August 18th, 2008

Wow, I'm impressed already, and I only spent about 10 minutes on it. Here's a suggestion-thing (if it's possible, which it may not be). Would it be possible to get different quality carcass depending on how you killed it? Like where shooting a dear with an arrow lends a higher qualit carcass that slashing it to death with a sword, or frying it with a lighting bolt? Just something to ponder on. By the way, I noticed you had right and left pauldrons listed separately, and a cuiress listed with pauldrons, are you planning on changing the armor system, or are you just adding variety/specificity to the classic Oblivion system. From what I see so far I love it, and don't see anything that should be changed, but as aforesaid I havn't spent much time on it yet. The only thing I think could look better is the sheath for the Atlantean Sword (the sword looks so linear and modern-almost, whereas the sheath looks sorta rustic and bulky). Very good, I intend to spend a lot of time on this!

CC 8-)
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maxy999
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August 18th, 2008

Just tried this mod and it works very well for now 8-) , but I would want to ask, is this mod changing loot of vanilia creatures, because I went into Oblivion gates and didn't get any scamp skins from scamps and clanfear claw from clanfears, or maybe it could be a mod conflict? :-o I only have Waalx Animals & Creatures.esm and WAC.esp checked.
Otherwise all I've seen til now looks very original and nice. :)
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August 18th, 2008

Rung wrote:I think there's still enough latitude. As long as the exterior cell hasn't more than 600 items and less than 350.000 faces, it should be okay. I mean, as long as there're not more creatures you have there at the moment ... I had about 6 goblins there.
I will check and add a bit of stuff. The Goblins camps are still in progress. As I answered already about the towers you can't go on in that version at the moment, this sould change in the end. I left that 'not working' until I can find a fix for the thing. Probably when I do I will update the campsites as well. ANd believe me getting 350.000 faces isn't that hard..

I already reduced Sweet Water camp much...it was too much. That may be another reason of why I didn't pack the goblin camps too much.
Jhondidfool wrote:Apart from the obvious misplace of some loot and a too aggressive behavior (to my liking) of the animals towards the player, It's incredible. Only real bad point is I had to un-check all UL *.esp, so I was saddened. If a compatibility patch was made (later on, of course), this would be great. Anyway, this shall fall into UL guys, as they've done this with lots of other mods. Same goes for OC.

KrigulvAfter playing around north of Bruma a bit, I have a suggestion for some of the creatures. This isn't the first time something like this has happened since I've been testing the WAC, but it is the funniest. I found a snowbeast roaming around, and he immediately ran from me. Not one to back down from a racing challenge, I took off after him. Well, he was running so fast that he sorta blasted off a small hill and actually died upon landing just a few feet below.
There some way to prevent creatures killing themselves this easily? Also happened to a red fear in Oblivion.
Let me suggest something I'm being very stubborn 'bout in the official BS forums:
Once the time to make the ll true, anything stronger than iron (or looking fantastic) should not be in them, rater in hand-placed enemies/places. This way the world would look much more real and getting a better weapon/armor would feel as a reward.
for the creature behavior there's a solution already. go to Sweetwater camp, talk to the butcher and buy the Hunter Amulet from him. While wearing this you won't be attacked by most big beast (leaving only the small fries that stay aggressive (wolves, etc..).)

the UL incompatibility hopefully the UL team will get a fix out, but you say you had to disable all of them? that's a lot, I'm only dropping spawn points in WAC mostly (except for the goblin camps where I do a bit of landscaping around). Normally, the spawns should appear. That, is unless UL change the terrain height EVERYWHERE. Yet that's out of my range. I'm going to have the mod run OK by itself before I start to worry about other mods.

third point, you mean the armor leveled list shouldn't carry fantasy armor like glass and such? I kind of agree but I'm not there yet. Once thing I would like to do for sure though is a patch that remove all daedric armors/weapons from Tamriel. If you want daedric you gotta go into Oblivion to get one. (I won't remove the bound armors, just the regular NPC shouldn't strut around wearing those as regular items. ( I think).
StarX wrote:I know Phitt mentioned it before, but the new imp based creatures (such as Gargoyles) should really hoover a bit closer to the ground, as they tend to get stuck in the ceiling right now.
I'll check that later (yesterday I was on the Little People head model). As I answered Phitt, the Gargoyles textures sucks, and I need to see what I can do with the LCE creatures animations. I made the 6 gargoyles in like an evening I think. I should review the whole thing.
Krigulv wrote: I agree, the Xivilai are pretty awesome. Had my first encounter with a Red Lord last night. Would've wet myself, but I was pretty dehydrated from the harsh Oblivion atmosphere.
I haven't seen many of the creatures yet, but I think my favorite would hafta be the white troll. I LOVE warbeasts, and their armor makes them look so mean that I just had to pick a fight with them. Fortunately, the other Imperial folk couldn't give a rat's ass. And with the WAC, they even had plenty of rats' asses to choose from. Dunno
ah? I though I had removed all the Xivilai from Oblivion. replaced the test spawn I had of them with low life (cherubs, hell hound, scamps). where did you see one?

The white Troll are supposed to have the Imperial Legion Faction on them, so the legion should be their allies, weird.. I'll need to check this. Technically the ones you will fight against in WAC are the Brown Troll. and some other colors maybe, but the Whites ones are guardians, and nice big beasts. Did one of you see the White Troll Midget that follow Hieronemus Lex?

Vacuity wrote:Talking of which... do all the wee creatures give rat meat as loot? A little more variety would be nice. How about gerbil tails? Chipmunk feet? Hedgehog spines (looting these seems funny though: sore fingers!)?

I almost couldn't bring myself to slaughter the chipmunks because they looked *soooooo* cute!

I've been trying to find the different sharks, my favourite thus far is the swordnose shark. The only issue I have thus far with them is the dissapearing corpses. Again, on the subject on ingredients/loot (hey, I made Item Interchange: it's my speciality!), some variety here would also be nice. Shark scales are biologically rather different from the scales on more "advanced" fish (the ones with proper bones, not cartilage), so, uhh, how about shark fins? Whatever your opinion on the industry there's no question people really do hunt sharks for their fins. Shark meat would be good as well. And people make jewellery and traditional medicine from shark teeth. That's three genuine uses of ingredients from sharks.
hehe..Yeah well there's a lot of loot to create actually, and some I didn't do yet. I did a good number of it already, but several is still missing. Good ideas there, I take notes.

I need to do Sabertooths, different antlers types I didn't yet do as loot, as well as a couple of others.. The only ones that are real easy to do are like when it's a skin and I just switch the texture and move the uv to fit the world model. It's not hard to do new loot, but if you know a 3D software, otherwise if it's the first time for that , it will not be easy to do at first you'll be lost in a sea of unknowingness. So you tell me. Are you '3D experienced'? :ninja:
Krigulv wrote: After playing around north of Bruma a bit, I have a suggestion for some of the creatures. This isn't the first time something like this has happened since I've been testing the WAC, but it is the funniest. I found a snowbeast roaming around, and he immediately ran from me. Not one to back down from a racing challenge, I took off after him. Well, he was running so fast that he sorta blasted off a small hill and actually died upon landing just a few feet below.
There some way to prevent creatures killing themselves this easily? Also happened to a red fear in Oblivion.
There's nothing I can do about this unless I make all beast to move slowly, like cut running, and make them only walk. Otherwise as soon as they run, and there's a slope, if they fall too much they die. (Like you in the game). They are just too stupid and don't know their limits, you know? :)

Similar thing happen when a beast stop walking right in the middle of a hill or a slope, the model will slide down until it resume it's walk. Nothing to do about that either.
Phitt wrote:I tried again and did it this time on regular difficulty, although it took many of my selfmade ultra-high quality health potions. I killed two of them in stealth mode with my bow before they noticed me. I think the Shamawans (or other shamans) are the toughest ones. They cast 10-20 quite powerful shock spells a minute it seems. Their health is also quite high for a spell casting enemy. Maybe decrease their health a bit? I don't know what controls the behaviour of the Warchief, but I think he should follow the player if he leaves the tent. At least in my case he didn't leave it at all. That was good on one hand as I could regenerate my health outside, but it was bad on the other hand as there wasn't any room for tactics inside the tiny tent. Makes it almost impossible to defeat him for players that go the stealth or archery route for example. And the biggest warrior of them all is the biggest couch potato as well?
you remind me, the poisons in WAC are an item that is to be of utter importance, as of now you can't go get the venom you find into poisons, but later you will. Clearing a goblin camp with stock of powerful poisons, that will be another story entirely. kind of alike you self made potions, but on the reverse.

for the chief.. I don't know why he don't follow outside, and that's weird. if you are engaged to a lesser gob outside, he will follow in the chief tent, but the chief stay there. Maybe the tent is too small for him to get to the door :) I will check.
I can't get the head morphs to import into max. That's the only problem in modifying the animation, but I haven't tried that hard either yet. So maybe there is a way.
I'm sure with MAX I would be able to have more done with the anims.

For the head shapes, thats quite weird, in Blender that the only thing I can import flawlessly (only one head I cannot).

The technique I found and used for all the new head is pretty straightforward. If you want I can tell you about it. Works with Heads, bows, and most probably anything that have shape animations.
running4cover wrote:Would it be possible to get different quality carcass depending on how you killed it?
no that's not in the plan, and if it's possible I'm not even sure. The carcass system is still not done yet, the only thing is that the beast already have their meat in them.. weird, I know! :)

As for the Atlantean Sword, it's not (far from) a modern sword. As it's name imply but should come from the lost land of Atlantis. That's only from the movie though, that sword doesn't exist in the Hyborian world of R.E. Howard. The scabbard is like the one Conan made in the first movie after he killed the wolves with it. For me nothing else would fit as a scabbard for it as this is what I always saw the sword in (in the movie).

thank you all for your reports! Keep em' coming! :celebrate:
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Forgotten
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August 18th, 2008

First of all great work! I've only had very little time (less than two hours) to test this out and don't have anything new to add that hasn't been said already in this thread.



One thing I'm wondering is if you're considering splitting up the .bsa into several different parts, i.e. one .bsa for meshes, one for textures and one for sounds for the final release?

I believe that it might speed up loading and decrease stuttering a little bit as the game engine won't have to sift through the whole hash of a single giant .bsa to find the specific file(s) it needs. BSA Commander is able to set flags upon creation of a .bsa archive that tells Oblivion what kind of files can be found in that .bsa and, if I'm correct, setting the flags of a .bsa only containing textures to tell Oblivion it only contains textures will make Oblivion completely ignore looking through it when it wants a file of a different type, i.e. a mesh or sound file.

Bethesda did this both with vanilla Oblivion and the Shivering Isles expansion by putting textures in a dedicated .bsa, meshes in another .bsa etc and I believe they had a very good reason for taking that route with large and very content heavy .bsa's. Perhaps Corepc, Jaga Telesin (if he's still around on the ES forums) or someone else with more experience experimenting with .bsa's might have some input on the peformance benefits of that?



I also think that the gargoyles could perhaps use a dedicated normal map to emulate a more uneven, rough surface in addition to being higher resolution. I experimented with a very crappy, quick and dirty normal map I made, combining a new one I generated out of the gargoyle colour map and the original imp normal map, and gave it a slightly more grainy and heavily sharpened but still overall very dark alpha texture to emulate the rough, uneven surface of rocks and, in my eyes at least, it turned out fairly well. ;)



All in all though WAC is suprisingly stable for being a pre-alpha though. Now looking forward to beta soon(ish). :)

Cheers, UQF
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August 18th, 2008

Forgotten wrote:First of all great work! I've only had very little time (less than two hours) to test this out and don't have anything new to add that hasn't been said already in this thread.



One thing I'm wondering is if you're considering splitting up the .bsa into several different parts, i.e. one .bsa for meshes, one for textures and one for sounds for the final release?

I believe that it might speed up loading and decrease stuttering a little bit as the game engine won't have to sift through the whole hash of a single giant .bsa to find the specific file(s) it needs. BSA Commander is able to set flags upon creation of a .bsa archive that tells Oblivion what kind of files can be found in that .bsa and, if I'm correct, setting the flags of a .bsa only containing textures to tell Oblivion it only contains textures will make Oblivion completely ignore looking through it when it wants a file of a different type, i.e. a mesh or sound file.

Bethesda did this both with vanilla Oblivion and the Shivering Isles expansion by putting textures in a dedicated .bsa, meshes in another .bsa etc and I believe they had a very good reason for taking that route with large and very content heavy .bsa's. Perhaps Corepc, Jaga Telesin (if he's still around on the ES forums) or someone else with more experience experimenting with .bsa's might have some input on the peformance benefits of that?



I also think that the gargoyles could perhaps use a dedicated normal map to emulate a more uneven, rough surface in addition to being higher resolution. I experimented with a very crappy, quick and dirty normal map I made, combining a new one I generated out of the gargoyle colour map and the original imp normal map, and gave it a slightly more grainy and heavily sharpened but still overall very dark alpha texture to emulate the rough, uneven surface of rocks and, in my eyes at least, it turned out fairly well. ;)



All in all though WAC is suprisingly stable for being a pre-alpha though. Now looking forward to beta soon(ish). :)

Cheers, UQF
I will experiment with more thing later, for now it was just easier this way :) If it can reduce stuttering and such I won't hesitate to split that in 3! Actually that's what I tried the day I built the files..first run didn't work at all I was using BSA commander.
Tried to have the bsa working with bsa commander, doesn't work. I had to create one with OBMM. that time I just tried to make a quit test with everything in it, and it worked, so I left it like that for the time being. I think it's a '/' problem with BSA commander.

Gargoyles.. I need to rework them! actually I forgot I didn't make a dedicated 'rock' normal map for them. I will.

thanks!
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running4cover
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August 18th, 2008

The non-agressive creatures are great, make the world seem more alive. I've noticed a couple of Bandit/Outlaw camps seem to be a bit overpopulated (the one on the NorthWest corner of the IC Isle for example, or the one just outside of Skingrad on the way to Kvatch (before the Gnoll whats-it-called Camp). The creatures, which are obviously the focus of this mod, are great! Oh, one other thing I noticed, which I'm not sure if it's a bug on my computer or in your files, but the Imperial Borderwatch helmets looked all messed up a few times. Otherwise, I'm loving it. By the way, what's with the scattered corpses hanging from stuff all along the roads? I'm probably going to remove those in CS once 1.0 comes out, but I just wondered what the reasoning behind placing them everywhere was. Keep up the good work ;-)

CC 8-)
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August 18th, 2008

My 2c... ;]

While BSA files make things easier to install and manage, the download file is much larger than that with textures/meshes packed with 7zip.
I used BSA for simple plugins, like Actors In Charge or some house mods. But for my Armamentarium Series I decided not to use BSA, mainly for three reasons:
- file download size with BSA inside would be larger about 100MB,
- all stuff in Armamentarium is the modders resource as well, so it's easier to use already extracted meshes by other people,
- this mod has no esp file with the same name as BSA file, and while the mod has no installer then BSA file needs to be registered "by hand" in oblivion.ini and that complicates installation process for casual mod user.
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