On the future of WAC and of this forum

Download and read about WAC Beta v0.1

Will you use the forum after the next WAC (to continue develop WAC further)?

Poll ended at November 11th, 2011

1 - The forum should remain open to further develop WAC. AND I'm willing to help! (WAC will be available elsewhere also)
13
25%
2 - The forum should remain open to further develop WAC. I'm NOT willing to help though. (WAC will be available elsewhere also)
16
30%
3 - The forum should be left available for reference, WAC released elsewhere. Let the Oblivion community help themselves wherever they want.
23
43%
4 - The forum should be terminated and WAC released elsewhere. Let the Oblivion community help themselves wherever they want.
1
2%
 
Total votes: 53
User avatar
Waalx
Forum Master
Posts: 1302
Joined: June 10th, 2007
Gender: Male
Born in: 1973
Location: Canada
Contact:

As some of you may already know, I'm working on the next version of WAC, and it will be the last version from me.

After the next version of WAC I will have no opportunity to continue working on the mod at all. I am leaving on a multi-year travel around the world, and I will not have access to a gaming machine to continue WAC in any means. I am taking a small notebook with me, but it's not powerful enough to run Oblivion nor to do extensive 3D and graphic work.

So this is going to be my last contribution to Oblivion. I have worked a long time on modding the game although I was not playing it other than for testing what I modded into it. In all that time, there was a few realizations that dawned on me over the years.

I'm not interested to micro-manage problems, bugs and stuff that users have with their game or their load order. I felt that I gave enough of my time as it is that I shouldn't have to be a tech support at the service of anybody that have problems with their games, and even less so if those problems are due to other mods, or worse for people that don't read the read-me and info provided. My work on WAC was done with a very limited load order to ensure that what I worked on was working with the game itself. The fact that it will/would be played alongside other mods is irrelevant here, as if I had to take that into account I wouldn't have been able to change one thing in Oblivion due to the several thousands mods out there already. I have taken note of the bugs that are from WAC itself and I'm grateful to everyone of ye who took the time to write about it here, and I tried to address those in the next release.
But for anything else like WAC compatibility with other mods I couldn't care less, it's not my problem. We are talking of taking (more of) my time to be sure that the free work I give away should be patched so it work with other free work? Get real! I only have one life, same as you.

It's a fact that for most people once they got their download will not come back to comment unless they have a problem, and that with a few exceptions that come back with comments (or praises) (or requests), this forum effectively only served one goal: to distribute the mods.

In one month time Skyrim will be out. I would like to say I'm anticipating the release, but the truth is I'm not even going to play it as I will be travelling around. I'm pretty sure that once Skyrim is out, Oblivion and it's modding scene will take a big dive to the bottom of most Elder Scrolls player's list.

As such, and because of what I'm doing (travelling) there's a few question that need answering about the future of this forum, and it's reason to exist.

So Maigret asked me to post this and ask you lot a few questions that will decide on that. Because she's disgruntled about giving her time away only to help people resolve their problems with WAC, as she's also not playing Oblivion anymore, same as me. Because we only have one life and our time is precious and limited. We are not tech support.

What this poll shall answer will decide on the future of the forum. There are few choices about what may happen after I left. As you may guess I will not be helping anybody that want to take over WAC. I will leave WAC with a few directives and suggestions as to what I think should be done, and what my ideas where for it, but after I'm gone I'm not going to interfere with it unless I receive questions about points I wanted myself in WAC. Those points will be clearly enumerated though, so there shouldn't be much else to tell.
Be aware also that if it is decided that the development of 'WAC after waalx' will not take place here, I will not answer anybody about anything else.

It's my idea that if WAC is developed further (and I'm sure it will) it should be done on here though. This forum would be the most effective platform for whoever may want to work on WAC as it's where it was created. After we get the results of this poll, and the next WAC version is released if somebody is REALLY interested to take over WAC I will do my best to provide you with a comfortable situation to work via the forum (if the forum is deemed to survive that is).

So the ball will be in your hands, so to speak.

Thanks for your support! :)
Image
User avatar
anohosikara
Vigilant Swordhand
Vigilant Swordhand
Posts: 165
Joined: January 21st, 2010
Location: japan

This is a difficult problem :?
User avatar
Maigrets
Admin
Posts: 1557
Joined: October 2nd, 2008
Gender: Female
Born in: 1954
Location: Australia
Contact:

The biggest reason I'm disgruntled as Alex put it, is because people come here to either just download and leave, or, and this is my my biggest annoyance...to find out how to dissect WAC into parts they deem acceptable, to get it to work with other mods when WAC is a mod in it's own right and in the majority of cases, give little to no feedback unless they have a complaint.

While this is pretty normal behaviour in the mod scene I find the absolute lack of respect towards Alex and the work he's accomplished in it's own right very annoying, and believe me that's putting it mildly. There are however some regulars who come to this forum and do contribute...thank you.
So Maigret asked me to post this and ask you lot a few questions that will decide on that. Because she's disgruntled about giving her time away only to help people resolve their problems with WAC, as she's also not playing Oblivion anymore, same as me. Because we only have one life and our time is precious and limited. We are not tech support.
We are not tech support for people to deconstruct WAC....this is the main thing here, especially for problems directly unrelated to WAC or so called incompatibilities with other mods. It's not our responsibility to sort out other people's problems or to help anyone pull apart the very mod they come here to download.

The ONLY reason I created the topics for getting WAC to work with other mods is to keep it out of the main WAC thread. Otherwise it really has no place here.

As for whether I'm playing Oblivion anymore....it's extremely unlikely, but not impossible. I've played nearly every mod that interests me and the game has nothing further to offer me after all these years. I'll more than likely give the last WAC a run through, but that's about it.
Some humans would do anything to see if it was possible to do it. If you put a large switch in some cave somewhere, with a sign on it sayingEnd Of The World Switch PLEASE DO NOT TOUCHthe paint wouldn't even have time to dry. Terry Pratchett
wkomarecki
Fumbling Sworduser
Posts: 2
Joined: January 3rd, 2011

I'm one of the "login to download guy". I don't want to vote. Just want to say I'm really sorry you feel such bad Maigrets. My English is rather poor, so no way to say more. Sorry and thank you for your work.
User avatar
Bizzy
Avid Swordlearner
Avid Swordlearner
Posts: 27
Joined: June 29th, 2009
Location: Lake Constance

First of all thank your for your Work, because of your new Wac Version, I will play Oblivion again.

The forum? I don't think it have much future without you and I think when someone has problems he can ask simply on an vig Elderscrollsforum, there ist often someone who can help.


But, I wish you a great Travel :).
User avatar
shingouki
Admin
Posts: 89
Joined: October 2nd, 2008

My main concern is whether or not you keeping up the forum will end up costing you money or anything to maintain. If it's going to cost you money to keep it up, I'd rather you have it as an archive and have WAC maintained in some other area. At the same time though I think the forum where it started would be a great place in order for development to continue...but its not necessary for it to be here in order for it to flourish.

I do think though that it should be released for use in some kind of...controlled way with rules. I can see a billion mods popping up using just piece out of WAC that won't really add much that feels like "WAC" or can be a valid part of "WAC"....

Overall I'm not 100% sure what my point is here :lol:, but I know I'd really like to work on WAC in some capacity.
User avatar
Maigrets
Admin
Posts: 1557
Joined: October 2nd, 2008
Gender: Female
Born in: 1954
Location: Australia
Contact:

I do think though that it should be released for use in some kind of...controlled way with rules. I can see a billion mods popping up using just piece out of WAC that won't really add much that feels like "WAC" or can be a valid part of "WAC"....
Yes, that's the main issue here besides the forum's future. People are already slavering like hungry wolves waiting to get their hands on WAC so they can pull it apart or incorporate it into other mods.
Some humans would do anything to see if it was possible to do it. If you put a large switch in some cave somewhere, with a sign on it sayingEnd Of The World Switch PLEASE DO NOT TOUCHthe paint wouldn't even have time to dry. Terry Pratchett
Hellbishop
Initiated Swordwielder
Initiated Swordwielder
Posts: 67
Joined: August 29th, 2009
Location: Upon a quantum string

Best of experiances on your travels Waalx. Sorry you wont get to play SKYRIM right away but i guess you'll be living your own grand adventure. Am envious just thinking of all the buetiful shades of the sunsets and sunrises you'll be a part of in your travels.

As for the Forums i would leave it up as a reference point if its not costing you anything financially. Otherwise close it down. Am pretty sure your child WAC will be welcomed with open arms at the Official Forums and most likely Corepc along with DevAKM will take great interests in WAC's growth.

Thanks to you and Maigrets along with all the others such as the original author of WACforOOO for all the joy and days of wonderful anticipation which you satisfied us fully during some pretty busy moments in your personal life.

Hail to the Creators Of Happiness!
Vacuity
Avid Swordlearner
Avid Swordlearner
Posts: 34
Joined: August 16th, 2008
Location: Taiwan

Going through points in order.

If the forum costs you time and money to keep running, it may not be worth the trouble. There can be serious problems when a development forum is being maintained by an "absent ex-developer". Any and everytime there's a forum glitch, things grind to a halt, people get frustrated and momentum is lost. At least, this is the case if things are being worked on as a team rather than just by one individual. On the other hand, large mods being developed by a group really do benefit from having a dedicated private forum, where development can be done without having to worry about the rules of a public forum and having your development thread(s) being drowned in waves of threads about bikini armour.

I absolutely agree with the tech-support stuff; it's the bane of publicly releasing material. "You didn't read the readme, did you?" "No, really, I can tell you didn't read the installation instructions." "Why don't you read it already? You could have read it three times in the time it took you to post here three times." "No, I'm not going to post the instructions here again because for some reason I feel like teaching you to read the readme is a better use of my time. I have no idea how I got that stupid idea into my head though." Even more heartwarming when you're describing how to cut chunks out of the mod. :x

I'd suggest a more public release (i.e. on one or more of the major mod download sites) and that someone should open release and support threads on at least one major discussion board. Even if that person doesn't offer much in the way of support themselves it does allow people to look in a single designated place for help in a public and shared area.

Personally, I'd love to help with development, but that's not likely as I'm not expecting to be working on Oblivion for much longer after Skyrim comes out. Should Skyrim disappoint in some way, I may reassess this.

Have a great trip in any case. It sounds like you'll have a great adventure.

It's not like I've played Oblivion much in the last few years, but WAC has definitely contributed to the enjoyment I've had when I have played, so I am grateful. Thanks!
User avatar
Waalx
Forum Master
Posts: 1302
Joined: June 10th, 2007
Gender: Male
Born in: 1973
Location: Canada
Contact:

Yes the forum cost money, but it's paid on a server I need for other websites. So the cost is not an issue for me. (My server host my travel blog as well)... and it's not very expensive at around 80$ a year. Whether or not the forum is archived, it's going to cost the same as leaving it open as it need a place to be displayed from.

The forum maintenance is another matter, but overall it's running by itself with almost no need for my input. 'Almost' meaning that I and Maigrets need only to monitor spam bot registrations that post crap every day or so. Other than that it's pretty stable on it's own.

My problem however is that as I will be on the road, my internet access will not be constant and I fear that in some areas of the world it will be pretty bad too or expensive just to connect my netbook. And when I connect to the web there will be many other thing on my mind than a mod for a game...

If some people want to continue working on WAC it may be entirely possible to do it on here in my opinion. I may have to help somehow but it would be very sporadic, and I wouldn't promise anything either. Yet this place could help that WAC is taken and worked the right way, and no insanity is made out of it as I believe that bikini armors are less worrying in that regard than pedophile stuff or bestiality. I'm quite sure however that WAC will be dissected and taken out of bound so I don't know what I can do about this either once WAC is released elsewhere.

Anyway, I've read many time on the web about people that will not even consider to sign-up here to try WAC, I even stumbled on websites that offer fake registrations bypass to access the forum. WAC have been available in many other places as torrent or other forums and download sites as well since a long time already anyway...

Most people have been respectful though. :)

WAC will be released on TES Nexus.
Image
zilav
Fumbling Sworduser
Posts: 3
Joined: October 7th, 2011
Gender: Male

Thanks for a great mod, it is really outstanding masterpiece. I can hardly imagine amount of work put in it.
Now about the bad part. People not commenting because imho
1) its a human nature to grab and use. I do myself rarely comment on nexus, prefer to push endorse button if I really like something. Unfortunatly, there are no endorsements here.
2) modding oblivion is an art itself, if you're seriously into it prepare to dedicate weeks or even months, thats why when you install such a big mod like WAC the first things you are concerned are compatibility and bugs, and only then (if it works) grats. Does it sound harsh? Perhaps... but only because people care about their time put into getting mods to work more. The same way you care about your time and work, and only then compatibility if any at all.

WAC is not a simple skimpy outfit mod - those get a lot of attention, praise and comments because it is straightforward to put all the "content" into 2-3 revealing screenshots. You can even comment how "cool" this outfit is even without installing the mod itself (I believe more then half comments on nexus are from screenshots only).
It is just not possible with WAC. To truly appreciate it (to endorse and comment) you must:
1) Register on 3d party forum
2) Download a lot
3) Read a lot of info
4) Install and get it to work
5) Play a lot to actually see it
I did it, and can repeat again and again - THANK YOU! But don't expect everyone to do the same.

I'm a programmer, and some time ago (I think it was 2003...) wrote a protection self-decrypting engine for PHP scripts. It was hard, I spent a lot of time, and uploaded it for free for everyone on a popular PHP script library site. And I know people used it a lot (google search doesn't lie). But did I receive a lot of comments and endorsements on that site? No, hardly at all. Yeah, I won script of the month award, but only few bothered to write me. And guess what did they write me? They asked why it isn't working with their scripts :). Was I frustrated? No, because I knew I did a great job and it was helping people, that was enough. I didn't care about anything else, especially why it isn't woking with some exotic php forum scripts.

I'm pretty sure you know you ARE good, your mod IS good, and people use it and enjoy. My advice - don't care what others say (or not say in this case), enjoy life and happy traveling. Return to Skyrim refreshed, we'll be waiting :)
deathguard08
Fumbling Sworduser
Posts: 4
Joined: September 3rd, 2011
Gender: Male

Although this is sad news, it also makes me happy.
I would love to see more of WAC in the oblivion community, mostly for the compatible mods, and the many additions that will be made.
Yes, as some have pointed out there will be some bad mods, but this mod will get far more attention and compatibility with it being posted on say, TESnexus, and I think having a few bad mods is worth it for all the good ones that will be made.
I wasn't too happy when I found out I had to sign up on this forum to download admitably, and I'm sure many other people felt the same way and just gave up. Besides that, it would be nice just to have this mod be more popular in general. I don't see the point in leaving the forum up personally, it is a nice forum, but with you leaving it will die out soon enough and the only posts will be necros.

Regardless of what is decided, thank you for this mod and everyone else for the support that was provided. I've really enjoyed it thus far and I'm glad to have played it.
User avatar
StarX
Vigilant Swordhand
Vigilant Swordhand
Posts: 152
Joined: June 10th, 2007
Location: Amsterdam, NL

Hey Alex,

A multi-year travel around the world? Did you win the lottery or something! :-) I hope you'll have a good time while doing that.

I'm not so much bothered myself by people grabbing and using my work without ever hearing from them again, though I also admit that it's nice to have some feedback at times. I also wouldn't mind to see this uploaded on TESNexus or TESAlliance, so when this forum will eventually slip into Oblivion we don't have to visit some obscure websites to get a complete version of WAC.

Anyway, I think WAC has been a great learning experience for you (and a bit for me as well!) and you made a lot of fans that admire your work. I have no idea if my suspicions are true, but when looking at Skyrim it seems like Bethesda took inspiritation from WAC as well.

I do hope to be seeing you back for Skyrim one day!

thanks for everything, matey! You'll be missed!

Cheers!
Salimbene
Initiated Swordwielder
Initiated Swordwielder
Posts: 69
Joined: June 16th, 2009

A multi-year travel around the world? Did you win the lottery or something! I hope you'll have a good time while doing that.
Hahaha, I thought the same thing, with the only difference, that I am sure you’ll have a good time while doing that.

Waalx, thank you a lot for WAC, it`s a fundamental part of my Oblivion experience. I love your animals, armors, weapons, your “asthetical approach” and “gameworld visions” (don’t know how to describe this things exactly), your creativity and your humor. (And I appreciate how much time and skills you must have been “wasted”, to bundle all this in one mod.).
I only have one life, same as you
Oh yes, so true. This sentence makes me a bit sentimental. A year ago my favourite Fallout 3 modder (the german modder Emod) died totally unexpected. A few weeks later, on Christmas, you came up with a new WAC-version. Man, that was really good, with that black hole in the background. A special and very personal thank you for this Christmas update.

Concerning forum future, tech support and similar things:
If money is not the problem I would prefer if you keep this forum open. A release of the coming WAC-update on TesNexus or TesAlliance is okay, but here is my WAC-Waalx-Forum. I am not playing Oblivion at the moment, but I will play the WAC-update sooner or later. And I will come back to this forum with screenshots and posts. (Okay I could post them elsewhere if it is really inevitable) This forum is a good forum, not very loud, but I like the people here (for example the “disgruntled” Maigrets).

I am only a mod user, but one thing I have learned during the last few years in the forums is: I have to filter out a lot if I want to remain in good mood. (I am still learning this magical filtering). And for modders this filtering must be thousand times harder, because they are more involved with their heart blood. What I am missing, is positive feedback, not only: “Your mod is really great”, but posts, screenshots, little stories etc. which show that the players have fun playing with this mod, and not only problems. ( I thought this “problematizing” and “criticizing” is a German vice, but damn, seems to be more international and complicated…)

But back to topic: I wish you a wonderful multi-year-travel and thanks a lot for your work.
User avatar
anohosikara
Vigilant Swordhand
Vigilant Swordhand
Posts: 165
Joined: January 21st, 2010
Location: japan

The last update is near.
I hope that this forum can look. Even if you begin travel.

You can also help people understand the WAC now introduced,
Above all I like to see a diary of WAC produced over a long time you made ​​this.
A process of the creation of the superior artist.
If this forum is closed and cannot look, it is too disappointing.

However, you should lock the comment of all threads if there is not a person managing it.
do not want to see that a forum is made up by spam and a worthless question.

WAC is MOD which I like most.

The design of a high level, extract of cruelty and the humor to sometimes see.
The bone of three people taking a walk is really attractive.
I can imagine various things.
WAC is also good I think it in harmony with the world view of Oblivion.

I think that I want more you to continue it.
Time is necessary for adjustment of game balance.

But Unavoidable!
Please value your time.

Cheers!

Machine translation :-P

I took screenshots.
http://tesnexus.com/imageshare/image.php?id=75610
http://tesnexus.com/imageshare/image.php?id=75611
http://tesnexus.com/imageshare/image.php?id=75612
User avatar
Maigrets
Admin
Posts: 1557
Joined: October 2nd, 2008
Gender: Female
Born in: 1954
Location: Australia
Contact:

I have no idea if my suspicions are true, but when looking at Skyrim it seems like Bethesda took inspiritation from WAC as well.
From what I've read, screenshots and videos, it looks to me they've "copied' from a lot of modders and other games as well. I'm not getting overly excited about Skyrim and all the hype even though I pre-ordered and have already paid for the game...lol. The hype and speculation is just that. We were promised many things in Oblivion and they never materialized, for several reasons, so I'm reserving my judgement.

I also don't believe modding for Oblivion will dry up completely. It will take a dive at first, but like Morrowind it will continue. For me to keep playing though it would depend on the type of mods.
Concerning forum future, tech support and similar things:
If money is not the problem I would prefer if you keep this forum open. A release of the coming WAC-update on TesNexus or TesAlliance is okay, but here is my WAC-Waalx-Forum. I am not playing Oblivion at the moment, but I will play the WAC-update sooner or later. And I will come back to this forum with screenshots and posts. (Okay I could post them elsewhere if it is really inevitable) This forum is a good forum, not very loud, but I like the people here (for example the “disgruntled” Maigrets).
That's what I like about this forum...it is small, you can say what you like (within reason) and you can, I hope, feel at home and not lost in a big pool. I've been down the road of posting and adding screenshots at other forums and I eventually end up lurking because of certain problems with larger "communities," and that I don't often agree with the general population (not the staff I might point out) and their views, among other things. I'd like to see this forum continue in some form even if it's only a few people, otherwise it will finally be over for me with Oblivion. Whether that's viable or not is not up to me though.

BTW...I'm not always grumpy :) Depends on circumstance and some people....lol, and I know I have a very blunt way of speaking even when I try not to which is often why I use smilies. :)

WAC is not my mod, not even a small part of it, and I'm not trying to speak for Alex, but I can't imagine having to make the decision about the fate of something that took several years of work to create. My own mods are minute in comparison, yet I feel protective of them..lol, so something of this scale is unimaginable. Hoping people will keep to it's spirit and style and not just let it be integrated and it's own identity be forgotten would be very difficult.

It does make me angry that the wagons are circling just waiting for WAC to be final so they can pick it to pieces as I've said before ad nauseum. :(

As far as TES Alliance goes and Tesnexus for that matter...people have to register at both sites to download large files in particular, so how is this forum different besides that it's obviously small and related to one mod.

@ anohosikara

Thank you for taking the time to post, especially since you needed to translate.
Some humans would do anything to see if it was possible to do it. If you put a large switch in some cave somewhere, with a sign on it sayingEnd Of The World Switch PLEASE DO NOT TOUCHthe paint wouldn't even have time to dry. Terry Pratchett
Gekko64
Disciplined Swordwielder
Disciplined Swordwielder
Posts: 87
Joined: November 2nd, 2009

Enjoy your well-earned vacation Waalx :)
User avatar
Mormacil
Exquisite Fencer
Exquisite Fencer
Posts: 949
Joined: June 12th, 2007
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Alex, mastersmith, I wish you the best man. I thank you for everything over the years. I'm not gonna rewrite this but just write what comes to mind so beware :P

I really hope this forum stays up one way or another and that WAC remains an active part of Oblivion. I've honestly never ran an Oblivion install without WAC ever since it entered beta. WAC is a monument, not a simple mod but a grand thing that raises the bar across the modding community.

Praise has been low and little but that's msotly because 1) people rarely praise 2) they want it to work with their mods/they don't appreciate what they get. In any way enjoy your journey and I'm sure this community is still here when you get back. Can we by the way get a link to your travelblog? I'm interested and curious guy and all.

So goodbye and thanks for all the fish ;)
"Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos"

"why would I be bound by rules if I can see so far beyond them?"

co-leader TES4 Valenwood
Jamez820
Avid Swordlearner
Avid Swordlearner
Posts: 47
Joined: December 23rd, 2010
Gender: Male

deleted
Radicus
Fumbling Sworduser
Posts: 4
Joined: August 27th, 2009

If there was anyone who deserves a break from all this calamity, it's you Waalx.
I know I've said this before, but to hell with it, I'm sayin' it again.
Image
You have done stellar work here!
:happy:
<_<...>_>...sorry, I just saw the banana emote...<_<
Post Reply